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Quad in the descent ...


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#41 Nexus

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 06:26 AM

Stu, i am not sure if you just have too big props, it looks like you could improve with tuning the settings. When it is properly set up (best string it up, see wiki) it will still wobble descending, but only a little bit, never so much that it will crash in a no wind situation just from descending, at least it never happend to me with different sized quads and tri y6.

What did happen to me (twice) is that if i switch off the motors completely at high altitude the craft  will not be able to recover and crash very badly -Just never try that....

Oh i just saw on your pictures that you are using a different controller, what i sayes is based on a CC, i dont know how others behave.

Edited by Nexus, 09 October 2011 - 06:30 AM.


#42 Stu M

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 11:09 AM

Nexus,

Thank you for your input.

Firstly, I have and never will cut the power when descending. I use power like a brake and try, where possible, to descend while translating. However, not only in a vertical descent, the quad wobbles to the extent she flips 180 degrees.

The manufacturer of the motors says that they should only have (max) 8" props attached, yet a distributor sells the quad with 10" props. Odd.

In general, the quad flies beautifully, is responsive and manouvreable - all except when it is time to come down and go home.

Would you be so kind as to point me towards the exact wiki page you have in mind?

Thanks again.

Stu

#43 Nexus

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Posted 09 October 2011 - 11:38 AM

For a CC Board here is the description to tune the stabilisation, do not know if that helps you with another controllboard too.

http://wiki.openpilo...ing Multirotor

#44 Stu M

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 04:45 AM

Well before I get into 'stringing' the quad up in the air, I managed a second test flight - albeit in a 6x4m covered area. I noticed that the change from 10" to 8" props has made a huge difference to how the quad performs but have not managed to fully trim it. In general, a little 'jittery' and difficult to hover (the quad, not me!). However, since I have been flying with 10" blades for the past 5 months, I'm not surprised that I found it tricky. Alas, it was one of those days when I was running out of time and my concentration wasn't at 100%.

ridgebackred has suggested I fly with 'undersized' props. A logical idea and, to me, 8" is undersized so I'll give them a proper go in 2 weeks (again, weather dependant).

On the other hand, spydmobile also offered some pearls of wisdom; tri-blades. One school of thought (a local model shop) says that the basic 8/10" propellors are too supple, leading to 'over-bending' of the blades when ascending/descending, vis à vis loss of control. With the value of the US$ verus the Euro, I have bought some 8" glass-filled tri-blades from the States. Yes, they're much heavier, but it's another avenue to explore.

Edited by Stu McAlister, 10 October 2011 - 04:45 AM.


#45 SeismicCWave

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 05:03 AM

>>On the other hand, spydmobile also offered some pearls of wisdom; tri-blades. One school of thought (a local model shop) says that the basic 8/10" propellors are too supple, leading to 'over-bending' of the blades when ascending/descending, vis à vis loss of control. With the value of the US$ verus the Euro, I have bought some 8" glass-filled tri-blades from the States. Yes, they're much heavier, but it's another avenue to explore.<<

Three bladed propellers are designed to reduce the propeller diameter while maintaining some form of power absorption. It is purely a compromise. The reason for a multi rotor to use a three bladed propeller is simply to try and fit into a nice small frame. If spacing is not an issue there is absolutely no reason to use a three bladed propeller. A three bladed propeller is LESS efficient than a two bladed propeller.

You may want to cut your lost and buy another frame for your electronics. Assuming that your motor shafts are still straight after so many crashes. Your stability issue may be because you have some major vibration issue by now.

#46 Stu M

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 07:20 AM

SeismicCWave,

I ought to point out that I am simply acting on information received.

As it happens, on Friday I ordered a new frame and have 4 brand new motors standing by.

Stu

#47 Spydmobile

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Posted 10 October 2011 - 04:01 PM

View PostSeismicCWave, on 10 October 2011 - 05:03 AM, said:

  If spacing is not an issue there is absolutely no reason to use a three bladed propeller. A three bladed propeller is LESS efficient than a two bladed propeller.

Yes they are less efficient, math does not lie, however, you are wrong saying there is no other reason than space, The Master Airscrew 3 blade props I have started using provide two additional benefits that you are not considering,

First, becuaese the are less efficent, they require more RPM to produce the same amount of thrust, this coupled with the fact that these props pretty much do not flex, this adds a type of stability to the prop plane, reducing a great deal of the vibration, or perhaps to be correct raising the frequency of the vibrations so that it is less noticable to the sensors, to use an analogy, its like driving faster on a bumpy road so that you feel the washboard effect less, Sorry if this does not make sense, but it is 100% reproducable and observable, especially on the Kinjal frame you used.
second, there is a more than significant weight difference between the two styles of prop, in the case of the MASTB the hub is HUGE and all of ths mass is centered around the prop shaft, and the hacker style motors are alsomst the same diamater of the MASTB hub, this is adding a large amount of mass that is rotating to each arm, and rotating much faster too, this also adds even more stability. T

His can be increased even further but inverting the motor and mounting it UNDER the motor mount and the Prop above. Another analogy, imagine you are holding a spinning bycicle wheel and try to move the axel , the gyro scopic forces stabalize the wheel making it hard to move from its spinning plane, now imagine that instaed you have two bike whees spinning and the axel in between is 12 inches (30cm) if you try and move this rig, it will be even more resistant becuase you cave created a second gyroscopic stabilization plane. I dont know the correct terms for what I am saying, but I know I can repeat the effect in an experiment, and therefore I know it is valid. I have taken many differnt flight controllers on default and applied this trick, and it is like pid tuning, it smooths out fliught, reduces jittters and increases stbility, admittedly, this may not have a dramati effect for some aiframes, but it has made the critical difference on many of mine, going from unflyable to flyable.

Bottom line is, at the expence of efficiency you can reduce noise, virbations and increase stability, by using these speciic 3 bladed props. I admit, my cheap gws 3 blade props did not exhibit this tendancy as much if at all. They are two light and flexible to give the added benefits.
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#48 Spydmobile

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Posted 11 October 2011 - 02:54 PM

Ok, here someone else who actually knows what they are talking about (Way better than I) explain many things we dont think about regarding the propellor and its center mass.
http://diydrones.com...:Comment:521337
Franco
OpenPilot: We take our time, we get it right, our systems rock. Just ask our pilots!
"Don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver or gold." - Bob Marley
see my fleet in my Mad Scientists Lab at The Lab
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